When we were looking at commitments we finished with workplace romances and that’s where we’re going to start today with consent.
One of the biggest reasons why it is generally considered unethical to get involved with with someone whom you have a professional relationship, such as a manager/employee, doctor/patient, or lawyer/client relationship is because of the power imbalance and it’s implications on consent. It can be easily argued that if the person with the power is making the advances, that it’s impossible to distinguish between consent and coercion.
But what if it’s the other way around? If instead it is the employee who is pursuing for weeks or months and making his or her intentions very clear, then it would seem like that the consent is genuine and that there is definitely no coercion involved. As far as sexual harassment laws go, it’s all about unwanted sexual advances. Even then, even if both parties want it, the person in the disadvantaged position would still have that disadvantage when it comes to any disagreements, breakups, or wanting to slow things down. The old adage that power corrupts, would seem to hold here since power could easily corrupt the relationship. I wouldn’t say it’s 100% wrong, but it’s clearly not a good idea and could get you fired or sued.
Then there’s the situation with consent and mind-altering substances. If a guy slips a roofy into a girls drink so he can have his way with her, then that’s obviously rape. I can also understand how intentionally getting a girl blackout drunk so you can take her home could qualify, but it’s hard to tell where that line is crossed. ***I worded that horribly wrong, meaning blackout drunk is obviously wrong, but that it can be hard to tell at what level of intoxication the line is crossed. See the comments for more.***
Due to physiological differences between the sexes, men typically have a much higher tolerance to alcohol than women do and by the time most men are blackout drunk they couldn’t get hard, even if their lives depended on it. So at least when it comes to scenarios where it’s only straight people involved, it would be virtually impossible for a man to get raped like this, and it also makes it impossible to use the excuse of, “I was blackout drunk too.”
You hear about situations where a guy picks up a girl in a bar or a party and after its all said and done she claims to have been raped. In some cases it’s obviously legitimate, but in others I’m a bit skeptical. If you listen to the Savage Lovecast you’ll occasionally hear from these women calling in for advise on whether or not she was raped or how to make amends for the accusation that she’d been raped, even though she hadn’t.
I fully expect some flack for this next part, but regret does not equal rape. I’m not trying to blame the victim here, but you can’t retroactively withdraw consent and sometimes its hard to tell if someone can even give consent. If it’s someone you just met, you wouldn’t have any idea what her alcohol tolerance levels are or have a baseline of behavior to see how drunks she truly is, but if someone is falling over drunk, it would probably be a good idea to help her back on her feet and walk away.
It would also kind of kill the mood to stop fooling around as the clothes are starting to come off to say, “Before we progress any further I need to know whether you consent to sex. Please respond with a clear verbal yes or no,” or even worse, a signed statement of consent. We all know that “no” means no, but often the strongest yeses aren’t verbal.
Since we’re talking about shades of gray here, I think when it comes to consent, it would be best to error on the side of caution. If it’s a gray area at all, just stay away, otherwise have fun.
Next time we’ll look at society’s double standard.
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"I can also understand how intentionally
getting a girl blackout drunk so you can take her home could qualify,
but it's hard to tell where that line is crossed."
Dustin, seriously? It should not be a difficult question as to whether or not feeding a girl drinks with the full intention of having sex with her once she is too hammered to say no is okay or not. If she wouldn't have sex with you sober, you should just avoid the situation altogether. I mean, I have too much pride to have sex with someone who wouldn't sleep with me unless I was inebriated. It's pretty clear cut, though… get her mentally incapacitated enough so that she won't squirm as much.
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You have pointed out cases where it would be clearly wrong. What I'm more interested in is where the line is between when it's wrong and when it's not. A woman wouldn't have to be so drunk to be slurring her speech, unable to walk straight, or puking for it to be wrong. There is
nothing inherently unethical with one night stands or the bar pickup scene, but, and this may be due to my limited experience here, I don't know exactly where that ethical line is. You can't always tell how drunk someone is and you can't always tell how drunk is too drunk, especially if you're a bit inebriated yourself.
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Dustin, look at what you said. "Getting a girl blackout drunk," then, "but it's hard to tell where that line is crossed."
How is it difficult to determine at the blackout drunk point whether or not it would be okay to have sex with her? Where is that line of okay passed? As soon as you feed any woman drinks with the intention of loosening her up to sleep with her. That's where the line is crossed. It doesn't matter the degree to which she becomes intoxicated because you played a creepy role in an attempt to get her to a point where she would sleep with you. That's not only selfish, but it's in bad taste to say the least. I'm not taking away the blame on the drunken female, but I would be careful…
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Okay, I admit that I worded that sentence poorly. Brevity isn't a good idea when it gets in the way of clarity. What I meant was getting a girl blackout drunk is obviously wrong, but where the line is crossed between right and wrong when it comes to lower levels of alcohol consumption and the ability to consent is kind of fuzzy.
I would agree that feeding her drinks to get her drunk enough to have sex is morally objectionable. However, it sounds like you're putting the ethics solely on the motive, but it's not that simple. What if she's drinking those drinks because she wants him to stick around long enough to proposition her or because she wants enough liquid courage to do it herself?
You seem to be focused on the motives, while I'm more focused on the ability to consent. Consensual sex for all the wrong reasons isn't unethical, while non-consensual sex for all the right reasons is unethical.
On a side note, I personally opt for the safer approach of asking for a phone number and calling it a night before I ruin all chances of anything happening. As a result I haven't actually faced the scenario we're discussing, although I find it very fascinating.
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"What if she's drinking those drinks because she wants him to stick
around long enough to proposition her or because she wants enough liquid
courage to do it herself?"
That's fine, Dustin, because this whole thing is centered around consent. If he's feeding her drinks to get laid, and she's drinking them to get laid, then of course that's fine! It started out like that, and the night will probably end like that. However, even when you're sober, you should always make sure the other person is comfortable, and check with them to make sure they feel all right. The key to healthy human relationships…
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Sounds like we're on the same page and thanks for helping clear things up here. Of course, your point of making sure the other person is comfortable is a good one.