Atheists are the most hated and distrusted group in America. As far as the lack of trust, that is probably due to the fact that people think that morality comes from above and that their belief in God is what keeps them in line. On Sunday I will be addressing (or starting to address) sources of morality, today I’m just going to cover if it’s possible for someone to be good without God.
Last time I asked the question to the believers reading my blog if they would abandon all morality and start raping and pillaging if they found out that there was no God. If anyone answered in the affirmative then that person is as moral and ethical as the school yard bully who is waiting for the teacher to turn around to pummel the class nerd. For the rest of my readers, then let’s consider some of the evidence supporting the fact that people can be good without God.
Let’s consider the charity “Non-Believers Giving Aid” (see the badge on the side bar), this is a charity sponsored by the Richard Dawkins Foundation to assist non-believers in finding charities to support who focus on helping people without an agenda.
Kiva is a micro-loan organization that allows investors to give small, low interest loans to entrepreneurs in the developing world. If the business fails then the loan is defaulted. On the other hand, if it succeeds then the recipients can support their families and can repay the loan. Then the investor usually loans the money out again. The largest group on that site is the atheist group at nearly $2.5 million with the runner up being the Christian group at $1.5 million.
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are two of the richest men in the world and have only lost their rank as #1 and #2 due to the fact that they have each given away the majority of their fortunes. What more, they have challenged their fellow super billionairs to give it all away. Guess what, neither of them believe in God.
So obviously atheists can do good, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t do bad. Of course if you look at prison rates, they are much higher for Christians than they are for atheists. Also, you don’t hear news stories about atheist pedophiles, instead those stories are about priests and pastors.
Obviously we can be good without God. So I’ll leave you with one last thought. Which is the most virtuous, someone who does good for goodness sake, or someone who does good because of some promise of reward?
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Always a fan, Dustin. I really admire your sincerity and thoughtfulness.
But how do you define good? Furthermore, why is it desirable? I can understand (and probably support myself) a suspicion of absolute morality, but where is your basis for a relative morality? That is, what (except a personal feeling, which isn't a reason not to believe, but is then no more transferable than a Christian's deep-seated belief in God) is your basis for thinking that "good" is to be preferred over "bad," or that the distinction is worth making?
And what, besides reason itself, allows you to assert that reason is reasonable? The argument there seems just as circular to me.
As an aside, what do you make of Cantor's theorem and its philosophical consequences (most importantly, imho, Godel's first incompleteness theorem)?
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Thank you for the kind words, jw.
Due to time limitations with moving I have had to address topics in this series out of order, since some topics are easier and faster to write. Last nights post took 20 minutes, whether or not absolute morality exists will likely take three or four hours. So I'm going backwards, but I will get to these issues.
jw, you are using reason to question reason. Of course this is an excerise that can devolve to questioning whether we even exists. I'll have to look a little deeper and see if it is purely circular.
I haven't studied Cantor's theorem so I'll have to look into that and get back to you.
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You'll forgive me, I hope, for trying to use reason, but as you said before, the only way to have meaningful discussion is to find common footing to start on. As for reason itself, I find it a bit like math; useful as hell, but ultimately man-made, and no more sacred than a urinal. Of course, the same has been said of religion. Have you read Peter Berger's "The Sacred Canopy?"
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I have not read that book. I guess I will have to forgive your use of reason. I don't think we have really found any better tools for thinking than reason, just as we have not found any better tools for math when it comes to adding two numbers together. As for reason, it is your best tool in saving the lives of your patients, isn't it, Doctor?
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It is important to remember that there is a difference between a Christian, and a Christ follower. Someone can profess to be a "Christian", but have absolutely no relationship with God, or having that relationship change something in their lives.
As an Atheist, what do you base your morals on?
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Read it if you get a chance. It's written by a Christian, but by it's content, you'd never know it. It got such a reaction from the religious community that he essentially had to write a follow-up book (though, it doesn't backtrack. you might be interested in both).
I'd continue discussion with you here, but you've inspired me to wax a bit eloquent, and I think I'll do so elsewhere. It'll take me some time to get organized, but hopefully it'll open up some more avenues for conversation. Keep up the good work, Dustin.
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Read it if you get a chance. It's written by a Christian, but by it's content, you'd never know it. It got such a reaction from the religious community that he essentially had to write a follow-up book (though, it doesn't backtrack. you might be interested in both).
I'd continue discussion with you here, but you've inspired me to wax a bit eloquent, and I think I'll do so elsewhere. It'll take me some time to get organized, but hopefully it'll open up some more avenues for conversation. Keep up the good work, Dustin.
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I have not read that book. I guess I will have to forgive your use of reason. I don't think we have really found any better tools for thinking than reason, just as we have not found any better tools for math when it comes to adding two numbers together. As for reason, it is your best tool in saving the lives of your patients, isn't it, Doctor?
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Thank you for the kind words, jw.
Due to time limitations with moving I have had to address topics in this series out of order, since some topics are easier and faster to write. Last nights post took 20 minutes, whether or not absolute morality exists will likely take three or four hours. So I'm going backwards, but I will get to these issues.
jw, you are using reason to question reason. Of course this is an excerise that can devolve to questioning whether we even exists. I'll have to look a little deeper and see if it is purely circular.
I haven't studied Cantor's theorem so I'll have to look into that and get back to you.